The Capitol Pressroom for December 1, 2011
Dr. Rick Timbs of the Statewide School Finance Consortium has a lot to say about the obstacles he sees as fixing the school aid inequities in the state.
We host a “moderated conversation” about hydrofracking featuring Norse Energy Vice President Dennis Holbrook & James “Chip” Northrup, retired oil & gas executive, and vocal anti-fracking activist.
And the Industries for the Blind of NYS is releasing an economic impact study conducted by UB on Thursday that shows that blind and visually impaired NYers are big contributors to NY’s economy. Chris Burke joins us with details.
42 Comments to “The Capitol Pressroom for December 1, 2011”
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Nancy Lee says:
Good show. Northrup was factual and the Norse Energy lawyer danced around every issue.
And the industry wonders why they have a credibility problem.
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NORTHRUP, A VETERAN OF THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, HAD THE FACTS, E.G., ONLY A 100 FOOT SETBACKFROM A HOUSE, WHILE HOLBROOK, A LAWYER, PLAYED THE WEASEL, E. G., INSISTING NO PROBLEM WITH MORTGAGES. GIVEN JUST THESE TWO POINTS, IT’S NO WONDER THE GAS DRILLERS HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.
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suzy winkler says:
A PERCEPTION ISSUE! Who does Mr. Holbrook think he is kidding?
100’ would not even be a stones throw away from your kitchen window. For him to suggest that that is an acceptable distance from someone’s home is a disgrace. In the Bradford County, PA, all one has to do is drive down the road and come upon such situations. Gas rigs are looming over peoples homes, well pads have been placed in the center of farmers “best” fields and adjacent to barns in such a way as to make it impossible for animals to get out to pasture and open flowback pits are situated next to peoples front porches as though they were recreational ponds! The gas industry has all across the country, demonstrated that they are disrespectful of a property owners who ask for even the slightest consideration.
Chips finishing comment that if the industry conceded even a little bit to such an issue it might help the public’s perception of them, is spot on. -
Martha Robertson says:
Mr. Holbrook was completely wrong when he said that zoning would keep fracking out of residential neighborhoods. Susan was right (but cut off) when she said that’s what the Dryden/Anschutz lawsuit is about.
In New York, municipalities understand that they cannot use zoning to direct where drilling can or can’t go within their borders. Their ONLY option is to outlaw the function completely, and even this is not yet settled law.
Anyone who wonders whether this is true only needs to look at http://www.tcgasmap.org to see where leases have been bought in Tompkins County by the gas industry. They’re all over, including within VILLAGE borders, clearly NOT subject to local zoning.
Mr. Holbrook was completely misinformed on this issue, which is so key that it makes me wonder what else he was wrong about. If he really wants to earn the trust of New Yorkers (per Susan’s question), he should learn how to be less arrogant and dismissive of people’s concerns. If this is the best spokesperson the gas industry has to offer, no wonder people don’t trust them.
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Fred Gros says:
Thanks for continuing to hi lite issues surrounding Hydro Fracturing. Dennis Holbrook closed the HF segment by suggesting New Yorkers must accept risks associated with gas extraction as life in general comes with risks and we need/use natural gas, etc. If a bad thing is guaranteed to happen and the only variable is the time it takes for it to occur, then we are not talking about risky enterprise. We are talking about a self-destructive enterprise. The industry does not have reliable technology to seal oil and gas well bores to prevent gas and fluid migration outside the well casing. Ground water contamination is inevitable with this technology. If the State of New York permits gas extraction using this technology, then the State must own the problems that ensue. It must fairly compensate property owners and communities whose water and soil resources are compromised. If it fails to meet this obligation, then the Government of the State of New York is an unjust and tyrannical institution.
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KFelter-Canarelli says:
Taxes, no taxes..It’s not safe, period. That should be the only discussion here. Unfortunately, bad money management in New York State leaves this state broke. That is Cuomo’s issue. Making up for bad money management isn’t going to happen by Fracking in New York. Cuomo’s career is on the line here. Fracking isn’t the answer to provide money for this state. Utilizing money for Viable Sustainable Legitimate Businesses here in NY is the only answer. I want to know how much money has been spent already regulating this illegal industry?
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No state tax on gas production in New York –
No money for the regulators or state road repairs
Norse lawyer would not even admit that there is no state tax on production
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63145742/New-York-State-Gas-Production-Tax
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Worst setbacks in the United States – bar none. . .
After 3 SGEIS drafts – gas well setback has not budged from 100 feet
http://www.scribd.com/doc/72545747/Worst-Fracking-Regs
Which is a textbook argument for local ordinances
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63141534/NY-Gas-Well-Zoning
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Aschutz forced a homeowner into a well under NY compulsory integration
http://www.propublica.org/article/forced-pooling-when-landowners-cant-say-no-to-drilling/single
New York has the worst compulsory integration regulations in the country
http://www.scribd.com/doc/73757496/New-York-Compulsory-Integration
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Catherine Wagner says:
I was disturbed that the industry representative was allowed to talk on and on and on
while playing loose with the facts. He knows how to lie without really lying.
He is slippery.
I generally think this show is great but was disappointed that Northrup was not given
enough time to respond and that the usual industry talking points were not countered by
Ms. Arbetter. -
Karen Glau says:
Thank goodness Mr. Northrup can without error set the record straight in a public forum regarding the least stringent set back regulations in the country put forth in the U.S. (100 feet from residences and 150 feet from schools)., and for dispelling the convoluted way the industry pretends they pay state taxes. It was most interesting to note that Mr. Holbrook spoke of what the industry would do, but not about what was actually in the DEC SGEIS. I find the “trust me” attitude of this industry comical, as their record is what makes those of us who have looked beyond their rhetoric, most clearly not trust them. Thank you Chip for clearly referring to and discussing the inherent flaws at the DEC
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The conversation Susan had with Chip and Dennis indicated that the gas & oil industry simply does not acknowledge what is in, and what should be in but is missing in the rdSGEIS and updated suggested regulations.
Unfortunately in the end, the DEC does not protect us and the environment by minimizing risk through strict enforceable regulations and plans for abating the untoward effects of HVHF, but rather the documents’ language leaves many loopholes to assure the industry it is welcome. -
Krys Cail says:
The “moderated discussion” format was interesting radio…. but, at some point, we are looking to the press to tell people what is and is not true, what is or is not people being “misinformed.” Dennis Holbrook’s facts do not jive with what you, as well as I, know is true. While he is accusing Northrup of being misinformed, and trying to smear him personally. While suggesting that our roads will be fine because the companies “work with” communities to maintain roads. They just pay out of the goodness of their hearts– they don’t need laws or taxes to make them!
These companies caught many a naive landowner in a disadvantageous lease. It’s not just “semantics” its a battalion of tricksy company lawyers using language against us. Let’s please not let NYS get caught in a disadvantageous law/tax/regulation relationship with these companies, the way naive farmers have been caught in disadvantageous leases. These are companies that have extremely bad track records for business ethics. Face it: gas companies just don’t tell the plain truth much. We need some press fact-checkers to keep it honest.
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Jane says:
No-one is listening anymore Chip; You offer the same old rhetoric… same old pumped up minuscule problems that already have solutions–
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Dream on “Jane” Based on the comments and the turn-out at the DEC hearings, I’d say a lot of people are listening and concerned about this.
Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, Oneonta, Ithaca, Dryden, Otsego. Middlefield. etc. all think it’s too risky – and have acted.
http://www.scribd.com/northrup49
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okay let NY state tax gas– change the set back to 1000 feet or whatever number is scientifically valid then can the gas companies drill now? Heck no.. Not in Our Back Yards ever…
you Mr. Northrup are just an oppositionist.. and will not stop any of the issues you have taken up… lights around the lake… developing the small town of Sunnyvale,.. a history of opposition…
Again, if the industry or state addressed ALL your reasonable and valid concerns (Most of which you present are not), you still would find another issue to use to oppose an industry which your family has made a fortune on… Why should we trust you? especially if you are self proclaimed oil man?-
Hey, Jane– are you the same Jane who sends me all the PR conference info for the gas companies? Don’t know how I got on that list, but, the publicists are definitely emailing me. Wonder if they are commenting on news programs, too?
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Richard says:
The gas industry has created the myth of “safe & responsible” gas drilling, even in the face of mounting evidence that there ain’t no such thing, nor is it even possible.
There is NO date supporting gas industry mythology, only academic arguments (too deep, cap rocks, etc.) and a trail of victims across thew country’s gaslands to highlight the “ground-truth” – which is inconvenient for the gas industry and their shills, since it casts doubt on their overall credibility by exposing their lies.
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John Holko says:
This clearly shows Mr. Northrup’s lack of working knowledge of NY laws and
fees and clearly shows he hasn’t done any oil and gas operations in NY. Who
needs a state tax when the current taxes paid by the industry go to the
affected area as property taxes. He also seems to forget that there are
large permit fees and if this tremendous onslaught of well drilling happens,
these fees will be substantial and paid directly to the state. He also
fails to understand that NY’s current road maintenance is paid by
registration fees, highway use taxes and tolls as well as federal dollars.
If the truck mileage and road use is as high as Mr. Northrup expects, the
Highway Use Tax paid to the state will be enough to cover any state road
issues and the local issues are addressed with bonding. Besides, what
trucking industry pays for the current road damage on an individual basis?-
New York is one of only two states without a state production tax on gas. So New York has no direct source of revenue from gas extraction – and it acknowledges the problem in the SGEIS. Local property taxes do not pay for damages to state roads – a point that Susan made and the Norse lobbyist danced around. The DOT has already estimated its shortfall:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/74102302/New-York-Shale-Gas-Road-Impact
The local property tax on gas wells do not cover costs to state roads, do not cover costs to regulate gas drilling. Oil and Gas producing states have both a local property tax on wells and a state tax on production. A fact that the Norse lobbyist went out of his way to deny.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63145742/New-York-State-Gas-Production-Tax
Most of the value of the well leaves the state tax free or lightly taxed – since the main gas producers are domiciled out of state and own the wells in the form of limited partnerships.
http://my.brainshark.com/Voodoo-Frackonomics-663835911
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WE need a state tax on oil and gas– did you not notice that the DEC staff keeps getting cut, and the previous Commissioner got fired for telling the truth that they are so decimated that they can’t keep up with their workload? Also, many of our roads are maintained by the State in the rural areas– like where I live, on a County road that is less than half a mile from two parallel state highways– all the trucks use the state highways. And, no, we do NOT want to negotiate agreements with the gas company tricksy lawyers, we want laws that protect us with the full force of law. Only a fool trusts a gas company’s word.
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BrianB says:
That is nonsense.
The local ad valorum tax is needed to defray all the expenses that drilling burdens a town with. Any left over would not come close to covering the expected damage to local roads. A NYSDOT discussion paper of this year estimated annual damage of local roads across the southern tier from a boom of gas drilling at $121 to 222 million. Each town government would have to pass a road use law to recover their portion of these damages.
What is more, the same paper puts damage to state roads at $90 to 156 million and concludes that the state has no mechanism to recover these damages.
What other industry can trucks do such concentrated damage as gas drilling where water tankers drive back and forth hundreds of times bring water from river to well pad before fracing and then frac waste out after?
Fees for well permits are only 50 cents a foot of depth. At that rate, they do not come close to paying cost of the DEC oversight, let alone compensate NYS for any other expenses. So currently taxpayers are subsidizing the regulation of one of the most profitable industries. The more wells drilled, the more taxpayers loose.
Note that Mr Holko is the President of Lenape Resources, an energy company and Secretary of IOGA-NY.
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This clearly shows Mr. Northrup’s lack of working knowledge of NY laws and fees and clearly shows he hasn’t done any oil and gas operations in NY. Who needs a state tax when the current taxes paid by the industry go to the affected area as property taxes. He also seems to forget that there are large permit fees and if this tremendous onslaught of well drilling happens, these fees will be substantial and paid directly to the state. He also fails to understand that NY’s current road maintenance is paid by registration fees, highway use taxes and tolls as well as federal dollars. If the truck mileage and road use is as high as Mr. Northrup expects, the Highway Use Tax paid to the state will be enough to cover any state road issues and the local issues are addressed with bonding. Besides, what trucking industry pays for the current road damage on an individual basis?
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You submitted this comment twice ?
Counties, cities and towns can adopt road use permit laws in NY. Several of them already have. The Town of Lebanon made Norse Energy post $82,500 for road damages. And it took Norse 7 months to pay up. If there is no road use permit law in place, the drilling companies can and will tear up the roads = state, county and town. So counties such at Tompkins and towns such as Lebanon have adopted and will enforce road use permitting laws.
http://my.brainshark.com/Road-Use-Ordinances-in-New-York-224232466
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Ryan says:
Perhaps Mr. Holko repeated himself because you continue to spew ignorant rhetoric, and unlike you he has knowledge and experience in NY.
You either don’t understand how taxes work or more likely, you understand but would prefer to twist words in an effort to further your cause. The taxes on production in NY and the regulations proposed in NY surpass, in any material way, that of any state you suggest and virtually every state. Please find me another state that receives in excess of 15% of Gross Revenue in taxes before transportation costs. Even better, go ask the school districts and county governments in Chenango and Madison county whether Norse or other gas companies pay taxes already. You might have to be more than a part time vacationer to do that however. Yet, you continue to intentionally leave people with the impression NY has no taxes on gas production which you know is completely false.
You and the rest of Otsego 2000 make up the majority of the comments here, in an effort to once again twist public perception. You spend more time spewing nonsense and scaring people than you do actually answering questions truthfully. I don’t blame ordinary people for being skeptical of the gas industry, it’s natural, but I have no patience for someone who knows better but would rather make a name for himself twisting what little knowledge he has to scare people while claiming to be an expert which you are not. Honest dissent is healthy, fake “industry insider” misrepresentations are dangerous and costing this state jobs and resources it desperately needs.
Shall we revisit what you do when challenged by someone? See the link below where Chip mocks a landowner because he cannot even listen to informed dissent.
http://eidmarcellus.org/2011/06/29/a-not-so-open-forum-in-bainbridge-ny/
Mr. Holbrook may be a lawyer working in the gas industry but in all his speaking engagements, a number of which I have attended, I assure you he has never shown anyone that kind of disrespect.
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John Smith says:
Susan:
I am a regular listener to the show. During yesterday’s show, Dr Timbs, whom has been on before, has once again made some comments that I must respond to. For disclosure’s sake, I live in the Williamsville School District…and affluent suburb of Buffalo.
Your guest consistently comments about how unfair it is that budget cuts and staff cuts, and allocations per child in certain districts are reduced. While I agree that it is sad that children and teachers are being treated in this way, what it seems like is that your guest has some sort of hostility towards the districts that CAN absorb some amount of funding reduction. I live in one of them. Williamsville has a huge fund that they can draw from to help weather out the storm, as it were. Is this our fault? Why must we be punished because we can afford to live here? Is it our fault because we CAN and DO live in an affluent area? If the funding formula is “unfair”, then change the formula. But I can tell you that as I have spoken with many neighbors of mine, and we seem to be in agreement that any change that would UNDERFUND our district from the levels we currently enjoy would be unacceptable.What’s more is that being an affluent area means we pay more in property taxes. This, again, is our choice to live here. My wife and I pay enormous tax rates…but that’s so we CAN have good schools. If there are people in other areas that feel that their children are being short-changed, they too have the option of relocating. The have-nots simply can not have it both ways-low taxes AND schools funded like in other areas.
I understand that this is simply my opinion, and it may be unpopular in light of the lousy economy.
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Nathaniel Johnson says:
Landowners and the state DEC officials seem to have their judgments clouded by visions of easy money and Siren promises of prosperity. Life is risky but trusting the Gas Industry not to ruin the state through water and air pollution, boom and bust employment cycles and destruction of our quality of life involves “unacceptable risks.”
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Anyone who thinks it is o.k. to place a gas pad within a few hundred feet of a private residence has a “depraved indifference” to public health & safety. This includes the DEC, the gas industry, state and local officials and the gasser-landowner-shills that want to ‘get rich quick’ at the expense of everyone else.
We need elected representatives that will stand up to these “frackicidal maniacs” and prevent the ecological and cultural destruction of Central NY by the gas industry.
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Kate Summers says:
I think the comment by Susan sums up most of this interview when she asks Dennis Holbrook “wouldn’t it be good to put it in writing”. 150 foot setbacks from a stream and 100 foot setbacks from a home is criminal. Why is New York one of the only two states in the United States that does not have a State Tax on gas production? Who’s pockets are benefiting from this? Thank you James for standing up for our environment and New York residence.
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QRS says:
NY could really appreciate a little regulation and revenue form the Hydrocarbon Industry.
the question remains to be determined, WHEN will NY get the proper regulations in place, and when will the State follow the example of others and benefit from a well head tax.
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the communities do benefit from the tax at the wellhead. The communities according to all the anti’s is where the impact will be felt.. so they should reap the benefit… so the idea that the state isn’t getting a benefit is another smoke screen to slow down the process— by oppositionists.. for whatever reason
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This is a total misstatement, Jane. Those of us who are opposed to hydrofracking are doing a lot of scientific reading about it– such as Susan Christopherson’s research on the economic impacts of the industry. Impacts on roads, and other municipal costs, are REGIONAL, not localized to specific towns and villages and school districts that are the taxing authorities at the local level. And, the ad valorem tax is figured based on an antiquated formula that seems to allow for the possibility that the initial high level of production will not be captured or recorded by the tax man…. by the time a production reading is established, the decline curve will have brought production levels down considerably. We must have an update to our tax regime for oil and gas, whether there ever is any horizontal drilling allowed in NYS or (I hope) there is none. The current situation is corporate welfare, and Chip’s right, other oil and gas producing states and countries have much higher taxes on production.
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I have read Dr. Christopherson’s work and she is onto something. She takes the discussion a step further and offers great solutions to minimizing the boom-bust cycle that comes with extractive industries; some of the biggies are controlling the roll out rate (sGEIS addresses this), how to manage the cost (the DEC has set up a panel that is looking into the potential solutions).. etc.
Chip has spent alot of his time pointing out flaws some real some perceived, some that have already been addressed from the DEC standpoint and some that have not. However, he does not offer any solutions. With all the comments being sent in, some of the shortfall will be addressed, including the 100 foot setback from homes (to ensure if fits within the mortgage requirements).
So, once all these concerns are addressed will you allow the industry to develop in NYS? probably not, so why raise concerns in first place if you are not willing to be a part of the solution?
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Concerned Farmer says:
Krys Cail, who are YOU to insult farmers and insinuate your politics and lack of knowledge on us?
We are NOT naive when it comes to the benefits of the natural gas industry in NYS. Family farms or legacy farms are GRATEFUL for the opportunity to lease underused land on our own property to help power America. Natural gas wells are BLESSING to good old fashioned farms with abundant land and LITTLE OPPORTUNITY to earn a reasonable living from it. I wholeheartedly support expanding the industry in NYS by allowing “fracking” because it will SAVE FARMS and SAVE FARM FAMILIES.
Chip Northup doesn’t begin to know what it’s like: he’s a rich old guy living off daddy’s legacy $$ which daddy earned by selling his solar energy to ARCO! Chip hasn’t worked in the field and obviously hasn’t studied it in YEARS. Why are you giving him the time of day? You pie-in-the-sky academics here who are sharing your less-than-fact-based opinions have to start listening to men like Dennis and start PAYING ATTENTION and get in touch with your priorities.
FARMS need MONEY to survive. Farming alone DOESN’T allow that. If you have land, you deserve to earn what you can from it to save your FAMILY and your livelihood. Working with a gas company is SAFE. It is PROVEN. It is REASONABLE. -
Jack A. says:
It’s amazing to me how the voice of a large corporation can talk only with money in mind… kind of like the saying goes… “If it’s good for GM, it’s good for everyone.”
I resented how Chip’s “part-time” residency in Cooperstown had any influence on the discussion…kind of a cheap shot… the fact that Chip is a property owner in New York State or not is a nonissue, but because he is, adds amplified meaning to his message.
Taxes aside, environmental damage is not fully reversible in many cases which leaves us property owners here in NYS with an aftermath the likes of which could have no precedent. The real issue is that we need to find more efficient ways to live and work. The faster we use energy, the faster we get to the “end.”
I am ashamed for our elected officials allowing it even to get as far as it has gotten all in the name of the almighty dollar.
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The notion that NY imposes no taxes is ludicrous. What is the ad valorem tax then? Moreover, Christopherson’s work is seriously flawed and obviously intended to please its funder – the Park Foundation NIMBY group.
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Tom Shepstone is a fracking shil,
Works for “Energy In Depth”
Which is a front group for the gas industry.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Energy_in_Depth
New York State has no tax on gas production.
One of only two oil and gas producing states without:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63145742/New-York-State-Gas-Production-Tax
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Dennis Holbrook says:
All, Chip Northrup has been a major antagonist to allowing the drilling process under any circumstance to move forward in NY. His comments have been given great weight by various media sources, because he is anti-drilling and claims to be a knowledgeable oil and gas industry insider, formerly an executive with ARCO. After observing his performance on several occasions I encouraged the moderator during an interview on YNN TV to set up a debate so her viewers could hear both sides of the issue and form their own opinions. Susan Arbetter, the NPR moderator, was watching that TV interview and decided to take up the challenge with the Dec.1 radio debate. The point was not to demonstrate that Chip is seriously misinformed but rather to help provide the listener the opportunity to separate fact from fiction. Case in point: NYS has a tax on production that is one of the highest in the country. It is based on production from the well and collected as a local property tax under a program that involves administrative support by the NY DEC and the NY Office of Real Property Tax. (See the NYDEC and IOGA of NY websites to see how the production tax is calculated). Second point: Over 10,000 wells have been drilled in NY using current setback provisions, without negatively impacting mortgages. If setback provisions need to be addressed the industry has demonstrated a long history of working cooperatively with impacted property owners, which encourages future leasing. Rather that reiterate the debate I encourage you to listen with an open mind and form your own opinions.
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Sheila Miller says:
Mr. Holbrook, when you approached me at the North Tonawanda farmers market, my first statement to you was, ‘Have you heard about Hydro fracking in New York state.’ Your immediate reply was, ‘I’m afraid you are misinformed.’ My reply, ‘How do you know I’m misinformed when I haven’t even said anything yet?’ Is that the only PR they can teach you. I notice it’s the first thing out of your mouth. I gave you a printout list of issues and told you to let me know what you thought I was misinformed on. I never saw you after that. Anytime you want to do a debate. Just let me know. But next time, have the decency to introduce yourself before just approaching me. Must be pretty important to you to travel all the way to Tonawanda to go after little ole me.
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Chip, calling Tom Shepstone a “fracking shill,” is as accurate as you calling youself an oil and gas industry expert with current and factual information that’s appropriate and relevant to NYS. He isn’t a shill: you are NOT a NYS gas industry expert.
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Shepstone blogs for a PR front that is paid for by the gas industry = a fracking shale shil
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Energy_in_Depth
Holbrook, on the other hand, blames his firm’s demise on anybody but themselves:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/74614768/Norse-Energy-and-Gastem-USA-Voodoo-Frackonomics
While evidently defrauding their investors
Curiously fitting spokesmen for shale gas . . .
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Great show. Thanks for having me on.
More info on topics discussed here
http://www.scribd.com/northrup49
Another 45 days to get those SGEIS responses in
http://tinyurl.com/dSGEIS-Responses